Sometimes I can understand why older games in a series can be better than its followers. A game can focus on setting, story, characters, battle mechanics, etc. These things can change dramatically with each iteration in a series. The Final Fantasy series has been know to handle change well. Metal Gear Solid has also dramatically changed over its various iterations.What happens when a series doesn't change all that much from one game to the next? What if the setting is the same except fuller and more developed? What if the battle mechanics, camera, and control are deepened, improved, and polished? What if the story is heftier and the characters are new and refreshing? What if the dungeons and item designs are smarter and infinitely more clever? What if the boss encounters are dramatically more exciting and way more epic? What if the games difficulty and design is way more consistent? What if one game is often considered the greatest game ever made, while the other is often now overlooked? What if I asked another question?
With the exception of some very forgettable and tedious wolf segments, The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess is nearly better in every way than The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. Why does it seem the hardcore Ocarina fans seem to ignore the very obvious questions listed above?
Blah. The answer is nostalgia and too much emphasis on the importance of the game at the time and generation of its release. So there, I answered my own question.
Yeah... the fight below is also way better than light-ball tennis and slashing at a tail a bunch.
Twilight Princess is the better Zelda game. BTW, as originally intended, I only played the Gamecube version of the game
Brad
28 comments:
Brad, I'm going to throw my opinion out here.
I've listened to you rant about how much you dislike the Z-targeting system in OOT. Honestly, I've never had a problem with it. It can be annoying sometimes, but hey, most games nowadays can basically PROMISE you that it's going to come packaged with some annoying flaw in it.
I watched the Project M race. I saw how you played Ocarina. No offense, but I'm honestly surprised you won. The way you approached everything in the game was like watching a kid frantically trying to bat a bee away from his face.
When you got into combat, I watched you flail about, not taking advantage of the Z-targeting system, but rather ignoring it, and simply praying you'd land a few hits on whatever you were fighting. When you DID use the system, you often were slow to react to oncoming attacks, or sloppy in your approach to get on the offensive.
My point in all this is that while you can deem Ocarina inferior to other titles, it all boils down to the fact that you aren't all that good at it, and because you don't want to realize that Z-targeting is easy to use once you've played the game for awhile, you refuse to get better at it.
All in all, I'm not upset that you think Twilight Princess is better. I'm not a raging fanboy who's going to curse you out because of our differing opinions. I just think you should take another look at OOT, and realize it's not as bad as you make it out to be.
Twilight Princess took everything that was good about Ocarina, and put a nice polish on it, but that's about it. It was an awesome game, but if you think Ocarina was overrated, I guess I'm confused why you think TP was so vastly superior.
Whatever. Still love ya.
Yeah there were a few things brought from OoT in Twilight princess but eh.
I liked TP but the ending was weird, and the wolf transformation was too odd as well. As for my favorite Zelda game, hm its gotta be Wind Waker, then TP.
I have to Agree on this issue with you Brad, I believe that if there aren't that many changes on the gameplay mechanics themselves, and all that changes are graphical improvements, and all the gameplay changes do fix are glitches from the previous versions that the later versions are better. Those that cling to the notions that the older versions are better are to nostalgic and need to get with the times because the only real reason to hate on the new zelda is the reason its not the OLD zelda. Thats like saying the Coca-cola that had an addicting drug and unhealthy sugars in it is better than the delicious cola of today, the only reason you would say that is either you are on drugs, or only like it cause its old.
To me since ive played almost all the 3D zelda games they are very fun in their own way. With OoT being of course the oldest of the 3D ones people are gonna side with that. But MM was fun to because you where able to do the whole mask transforming thing. TP is fun because it beings the horse combat and a new style of fighting on to the Wii/Gamecube. I never really played WW because i never really got in to the gamecube so i only played it at my friends how. It had the old school enemies like the moblins and such.
so what im getting at is all the zelda games are good saying one is better than the other is kinda like comparing just a revamped version of a game.
It's simply a matter of innovation. Ocarina of Time did a lot of things differently and new. The problem with Twilight Princess is that it didn't. If everyone built up constantly on the same base without ever branching outward, then we'd have perhaps 2 genres of games? Zelda: Ocarina of Time represents branching out. Twilight Princess...is trimming the hedges. So from a technical perspective, yes, Twilight Princess is better. Quite honestly, it had to be. If it didn't, a core value of the game would have had to have been destroyed. But as a...at the risk of sounding pretentious...work of art, it was far inferior. A photo copy vs a Mona Lisa.
I haven't played any Zelda games before... yeah, yeah, I know... but, I can kinda see where you're coming from in terms of controls in old games.
I'll make a comparison to Metal Gear... I personally feel that MGS3 is the best in the series for the time it was released. But MGS4 is the best in terms of playability (controls and such). Overall, I still think MGS3 is better because of gameplay mechanics (camouflage, hunting/stamina, and boss battles) and setting. However, I tried to go back and play MGS3 recently and holy crap... it was incredible how much nostalgia had clogged my mind in terms of the controls.
I never had a problem when MGS3 was first released but, the controls are truly terrible. So, I'm not sure people should even try to compare games separated by generations...
I personally think it's all about when the game first comes out and how it impacts you at that moment. However, one could argue that if it was a truly classic/revolutionary game it would hold up over time...
Some people just like (for whatever reason) older games as they are more difficult in terms of gameplay and controls... Whether it's the "added challenge" of Z-targeting, lack of checkpoints or holding down 3 buttons too look down the iron sights of your assault rifle.
I played both games as they launched. My arguments here are based on how I felt about them when they launched so that the new game hype isn't a factor.
I'll start by saying that I liked TP at its launch more and I played the Wii version.
The world layout had a much welcome difference this time around. Instead of having one large central area with smaller areas expanding, we have an interconnected large scale map. I found it more intriguing to explore and it certainly brought more challenge to collecting side objective objects.
The control was excellent. I've heard some people knock on the Wii control, but I honestly found nothing wrong with it. It was really fun to use once I got the new feel down. I really liked the swinging on the control and the nunchuk, it added a new intensity. Defiantly another welcome change from the standard single control style.
Bosses and Dungeons: I don't think I even need to explain in detail here. TP dungeons were designed with high detail and the bosses were tricky, fun, and often intense. I couple I want to focus on is, first, the water temple and its boss. The OoT water temple was extremely annoying the first time around, and I'm pretty sure most people know what I mean. The TP water temple had some direction with the puzzle, a few more "Ooooooh I see" moments.
When I sunk to the bottom of the boss room and the single tenticle popped out, I thought it'd be the same as Oot... until 7 more ascended along with a giant mount inside another giant mouth. Now, nothing in the game freaked me out more then when the boss burst out of the ground and swam around in all its giant glory. I'm not a big fan of coming across anything in he water, and this game was no exception.
The next is the City in the Sky and it's boss Argorok.
Holy crap was this one epic. I'll keep this one short by saying the dual-clawshot and fighting a dragon on the peak of a floating structure was an unmatched experience.
I think I've already taken up enough space with my rambling so I'll cut it off here. I'll close by stating again that TP was more entertaining at its launch for me than OoT was. Though I do have to say that if Wind Waker and Majora's Mask were to be thrown into the mix, the result would be different. WW, though not my absolute favourite, had excellent cartoon style visuals and a combat and world exploration style that I'm still not bored of to this day. And Majora's Mask... simply, without reason, my favourite of the entire collection.
I agree whole-heartedly. OoT was fine at the time, it was the best we had. Lessons lerned from OoT and later 3D Zeldas, have (for the most part) been applied to make a better, more entertaining game overall. This can be said for many game franchises that have been around forever.
There's nothing wrong with nostalgia, but we shouldn't let it get in the way of really looking at was a newer iteration has to offer us. And how much better it may be over older titles.
Centipede,
In my post I don't discuss Z Targeting at all.
I have problems with the system, and it has been improved over the years.
My point remains.
Also I agree that Ocarina was in a lot of ways more revolutionary than TP. But I'm trying to think back on them objectively and really determine which game is better.
Super Mario Bros, the original Zelda and Metroid are no doubt more revolutionary than their SNES predecessors. But IMO SMW, Super Metroid, and ALttP are by far the better games.
Twilight Princess is to Ocarina as those games are to their original NES counterparts.
Jesus Brad, I'm so glad somebody agrees with me on this. I've posted on forums all over the place arguing with Zelda freaks about how Twilight Princess is clearly the better game owing to the fact that they're essentially exactly the same, except one is just... better.
I can see even here on your comments thread people keep arguing essentially that Ocarina is better simply because it came first and there was nothing else like it at the time. What a crock of wallaby turd. The Wright brothers made the first aeroplane and there was nothing else like it at the time, but which would you rather fly in - their tied-together-with-string death trap or a Boeing 747? The Model T Ford was revolutionary, but that doesn't make it better than a Ferrari.
From listening to the podcast, it sounds like you and I have very similar taste in games and a lot of the same ideas about how they can be improved (I just got a PSP and I'm mainly using it to play Symphony of the Night and FFT *yet again*). Maybe we're in the minority of rational thinking human beings, I don't know.
oh yeah, Centipede: your argument is "Ocarina isn't bad, it's just that YOU SUCK!"? Dude, get back to class, I heard the teacher calling for you. It's amazing how 3rd graders learn how to use the internet so fast these days.
It seems foolish to try and get a decisive answer out of accumulated opinions. There will never be a defining answer to which is better, everyone has their own thoughts. It's the same thing that gets devotees to FPS, RPG, RTS and so on.
I've stated why I found TP to be a better game from my perspective, but I also can see why others like OoT.
The final note is that as games go along there will always be new technology, improvements, etc to make them better. It depends on if people want to live in the past with the old games or open up and see what the new age has to offer.
Well then yes, clearly Twilight Princess is better from that stand point. It has far superior technology to back it up and a very, very solid base. It's on a machine that can do so much more, and to be honest I'd rather rent Twilight Princess than the OOT, unless I was either interested in nostalgia (like you said) or paying homage to the originals.
Quatar makes a point of comparing a Boeing 747 and the Wright Brothers' first aeroplane. Yeah, the Boeing 747 is better, but without the Wright Brothers' plane, the Boeing 747 wouldn't exist. So I agree with Brad, I just think that Ocarina of Time was more important.
Great blog!
well what i ca say is, you might have come to love the simplicity and classic engine of OoT and classic Zeldas. Such a big step to 3D is ruining it for you. Like me and spyro. When i was little i came to love the simple purple dragon who breaths fire, charges, and collects gems. But now, new ones have like freakin fire, ice,water, and lighting. the hell is that? and now he can fly freely. -_- oh and by the way, spyro the dragone (1) sucked, never play it.
Don't start with insults, Quater. I don't want this to turn into a name-calling contest.
You probably could say that was my argument. Alot of times when I saw Brad trying to say it was "difficult for the wrong reasons", I remember having no trouble with it.
It's like the few times I play Halo 3. I'm terrible at it, but I don't say "This game isn't good because so many people are able to kill me so quickly. It shouldn't be a test of skill, it should allow for everyone to have equal fun". I still have fun with it, and realize that I'm not doing well because of my own lack of skill at it.
Brad, I was touching mostly on what you were complaining about when you claimed the dungeons were challenging because of Z-targeting, or because the puzzles weren't logical. I seem to recall you bringing up the Shadow temple, and that you had to bomb a pile of dirt in the corner to get a key. You called it "inconsistent". But thinking back, I remember that. The pile of dirt had a nice, big, red crack in it, which- like in any other puzzle in which a big crack appeared- signified that it was bombable. I'm not saying I'm uber-superior or anything, but with a little thinking, I got past that rather quickly.
All I'm saying is that it seemed you got upset at the game whenever you got stuck, which isn't always the game's fault.
Lord_Damios puts my thoughts into text pretty well. Listen to him.
Eh, I still prefer Wind Waker.
@ Centipede: Yeah sorry man, I'd be the last one to want to turn this into some kind of flame war, but it seemed to me like your argument was kind of ridiculous. This blog and the general guys in the chatroom are generally really cool people compared to the communities on some other blogs and I'm not the kind of guy to just randomly insult people I don't know on the internet, so I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your comment.
I do agree with you about certain things, like I do remember on the night of the race that there was a big sticking point about the Z-targeting, which I have personally never had a problem with even at the time when Ocarina came out, and I do remember watching Brad (and the other guys too) play the game seemingly without using Z-targeting at all and I thought "you guys would be finding this game so much easier if you would just use the tools that the developers gave you in the way they're supposed to be used". But it seemed like you were saying that Brad's opinion didn't count simply because he wasn't all that good at the game.
I also agree with you about the Halo 3 thing - personally I don't play Halo 3 online much but I had a similar experience with Team Fortress 2 - I can see it's a really good game and I really wanted to play it, but there are so many people who've been playing it since it came out who are amazingly good at it and every time I joined a game I'd just get my ass kicked and be at the bottom of the scoreboard every time.
Now, that doesn't mean TF2 is a bad game, but at the same time I do think it's a failure of game design - if a game gets to a point after a year or two of being released where new players just don't stand a chance at all, that's kind of a failing of the basic design of the game, because it means the game is NOT timeless, there's a period of about 6 months where you can start playing it and still be in with a chance, but if you're just getting slaughtered every single time, that's not fun at all and it's like there's no point in playing the game.
Similarly, if a single-player game's mechanics are just outdated and the level design is no longer intuitive because it's been improved upon in a later game (which is the case with Ocarina and Twilight Princess) then you can't really argue that the original game is still as good as it once was, whether it was revolutionary or not.
I think the problem is that over time, people have blended the terms "best game" and "most revolutionary game." Ocarina of Time basically set the standards for large 3D worlds, great visuals, etc. for that time for any games that came out after. It was a brilliant success, one of the most influential 3D games ever.
But Twilight Princess is definetely the better game. It's not just preference; it's just better in every way. The story was deeper (Although OOT did set up some interesting background lore, TP expanded on it a lot more), the gameplay was smoother, the art and level design was a lot better and stylized, and the amount of content and the quality of graphics were higher. The only thing it doesn't have is nostalgia.
Of course, there is the fact that Zelda has an Unpleaseable Fanbase.
"MM sucks, OOT was amazing," which changed to "WW sucks, MM was great," then "TP sucks, WW was awesome."
"We need a game different from OOT!"
*WW is released*
"This is horrible! We need a game just like OOT!"
*TP is released*
"What are you doing Nintendo?! We don't want an OOT clone!"
etc, etc.
Ok, well im going to throw this out, you have your own opinion, and thats great, but you forget the fact that ocarina of time is better, because it was the first one that, set an example of what future Zelda games would be. The dungeons posed a bigger threat, especialy in master quest, I easily did a 3 heart run in twilight princess, and wore the blue tunic, in ocarina of time, if u try that, it is a bit difficult. Dont get me wrong both games are easy. But the best is ocarina of time, graphics arnt everything.
Also TP has no optional quests, for a better sword, it didnt have the mirror shield, crappy armor I had to have money for, and a labryth, that was so easy I 3 stocked it, with zora armor. Now OoT had, the goron sword, it had the extra magic, it had more challenging boss fights... it had master quest, it has been released multiple times, for certain occasions. How many times has TP been released, oh once and its been about now 2 years. Lol amazing such a great game right.
Even wind waker got another, and is getting a third game, from the wind waker story. TP had no musical, well next to none musical play. I didnt get to play some of the best music I have heard, yeah the wolf game play was fun, but it got kinda stupid being a wolf, instead of swordplay, finding items, and taking on bosses, as well as sidequests. TP was a mediocre game. nuf said, you have your opinion and I have mine.
rofl stocked, oops im in my brawl mood =_=... hearted it
I think that so many people have said OOT is one of the greatest games ever, and TP didn't get that much hype as OOT. So people just have it in their mind that OOT is the better game.
I think everyone who says OoT sucks compared to TP just wasn't around to play it when oot first came out.Not that tp is bad or anything. in fact its one of the best games out there. But tp didnt come close to having the same impact as OoT did. millions of ppl wasted months on oot. Then wasted even more time trying to find the triforce because everyone beleived that nintendo conspired to hide it in the game somewhere. I remember at least 20 hoaxers that came out claiming to be able to find the "sacred relic" and it being such a huge deal in the online community. TP hasn't produced any fancraze even remotely similar to that, or at all in fact. Also oot did have a nostalgic feel to it, but it was ingame as you were a kid for a good chunk of it and then grew up to find the world in ruins. Not like in "Twilight Princess" where you just begged for the twilight world segments to be over with as quickly as possible. And Twilight just didn't have any blow you away moments like when you find out who sheik realy is. Sure everyone knows he's zelda in diguise now but back in 98' it was a real shocker. I just think ppl need to appreciate what oot did for its time and especialy with the hardware it had to work with.
I think everyone who says OoT sucks compared to TP just wasn't around to play it when oot first came out.Not that tp is bad or anything. in fact its one of the best games out there. But tp didnt come close to having the same impact as OoT did. millions of ppl wasted months on oot. Then wasted even more time trying to find the triforce because everyone beleived that nintendo conspired to hide it in the game somewhere. I remember at least 20 hoaxers that came out claiming to be able to find the "sacred relic" and it being such a huge deal in the online community. TP hasn't produced any fancraze even remotely similar to that, or at all in fact. Also oot did have a nostalgic feel to it, but it was ingame as you were a kid for a good chunk of it and then grew up to find the world in ruins. Not like in "Twilight Princess" where you just begged for the twilight world segments to be over with as quickly as possible. And Twilight just didn't have any blow you away moments like when you find out who sheik realy is. Sure everyone knows he's zelda in diguise now but back in 98' it was a real shocker. I just think ppl need to appreciate oot for what it did for its time and especially with the software it had to work with.
also in my opinion ocarina of time created an atmosphere like no other game has been able to do since. TP was just too empty.
Post a Comment